10 November 2009

Testing Testing —

So, I'm digging.

I had poked around Junkfood Science, but now I'm digging in and digesting the info out there.

A brief bit of background: I haven't read any of the prerequisite FA books and haven't read much about the meat and potatoes of why the obesity epidemic is BS. I understand why BMI is a false indicator of health and how doctors tend to address obesity as the sole cause of any ailments a fat patient might have (rather than address the ailment first and then decide whether weight is the major culprit).

I definitely understand the public's bias against fat people and how popular culture perpetuates all the stereotypes about fat people, whether personality (all fat people are lazy) or health (all fat people have one foot in the grave).

I understand how the government has grouped Obese and Overweight into one megagroup (the Fats), typically represented in the news by a headless fatties who act as stand-in for society's contempt.

I get it. It's why I'm here.

But, what I'm just now starting to look into is how we got to this point at all. I mean, I know the broader cultural context that whittled our waists down over the decades to the contemporary (unattainable) ideal. Why did this century kick off with a healthcare witchhunt, of which the long-term psychological impact on society we have yet to fully realize?

So, I started looking into it and I've been hooked. It must be the latent journalist in me.

Fair warning, as I write about these topics, many of you are going to say, "Der-hay, this is 101 stuff." Yeah, you're right. That's the point. Maybe there's some 101-level post out there that says what I'm going to say, but says it much better. If there is, share the link and we'll all be a little wiser. But I'm working through this knowledge for myself and I want to give anyone who is interested an opportunity to correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, you don't know what you don't know. I could misread things or misinterpret them or place too much value on one study and not another... I'm grotesquely underqualified to comment on scientific studies and rely heavily on the work of others to translate. I'm simply translating the translation for my own benefit and, should anyone else be so inclined, your benefit as well.

First, I have to give a big shoutout to Sandy Szwarc, the guru behind JFS. I'm astonished by her clarity of voice and her ability to boil down these incredibly complicated issues into easy-to-digest morsels of information that are no less mentally nutritious for their breviloquence.

I do, however, wish to note that part of me remains skeptical of JFS, not because I doubt her facts, but because I'm not knowledgable enough in her field to know whether she is knowledgable enough in her field. I assume she is, but I remain a skeptic of hers, as I do of any expert.

So, the first thing I learned from JFS was about null studies, which led me to look into publication bias. From what I understand, publication bias is the "the tendency for researchers, editors, and pharmaceutical companies to handle the reporting of experimental results that are positive (i.e., they show a significant finding) differently from results that are negative (i.e., supported the null hypothesis) or inconclusive."

The reasons for publication bias range from the unassuming (researchers who think a negative or inconclusive result has little or no value) to the sinister (pretty much all the pharmaceutical and weight loss entities).

Publication bias matters because when someone sets out to perform meta-analysis (typically, feeding all known studies into a computer model and searching for correlations, which is the primary tool of anti-obesity research), there may be null studies that would temper the results.

For example, let's say there are four studies on the effects of Twinkies on lab rats. Two studies say there are minor health consequences from rats on a Twinkie-only diet. One study says the consequences are dire. And one study says there are no consequences.

Due to a phenemenon known the file drawer effect, the researcher who found no consequences may consider his research a fluke or not worth publishing, so she tucks it away. Therefore, when Researcher X comes in and performs meta-analysis, he only has three studies to draw from and the results will be significantly different than if he had all four to pull from.

To combat publication bias, many journals are asking researchers apply for publication prior to beginning their study and requiring the results to be submitted regardless of the outcome. The hope is that this will prevent researchers from only reporting research which supports their hypothesis.

Understanding that studies (especially meta-analysis studies) released to the media aren't Facts handed down by God. They should all be viewed with a skeptical eye until you know how the study was performed and who stands to benefit from the results.

I wish there was an easy way to find that out, so when the next Obesity Doom!!! story comes out, we could just say, "This one was paid for by Pfizer." Hell, it seems like that information should be toward the top of the article, so any potential bias can be act as Grain of Salt.

After reading all this, I moved on to some articles from the CDC's 2004 Inaugural Obesity Epidemic Orgy.

How anyone can read the timeline of this and not smell something fishy is beyond me?

But you know who was on it like a hornet from about a month after the CDC announced 400,000 dead fatties a year?

Sandy Szwarc.

One of the points she makes in her article on the overblown epidemic was that "they excluded from their search many factors known to increase death risks such as aging, low socioeconomic status and medical treatment errors. They did this despite the fact that aging is the single greatest risk factor for death."

In 1990, a Department of Health and Human Services study found that, annually, 300,000 deaths were attributable to "diet and activity pattern." The 2000 CDC study found that 400,000 deaths were due to "diet and activity pattern."

Put this through the CDC spin machine and it comes out in the media as "CDC: Obesity approaching tobacco as top preventable cause of death" and "Extreme Obesity: A New Medical Crisis in the United States" and voilĂ ! an epidemic is born.

Despite a challenge from the original 1990 study authors, despite the fact that a later study called the 2000 study's methods into question and found the rate to be closer to 111,909 (and that's not counting the 80,000 or so you can subtract out due to the health benefits of being Overweight), the meme was created and the truth distorted: fat = death.

You can argue over whether being Obese is unhealthy, but clearly being in the Overweight BMI category is okay. Yet, that hasn't stopped the media from preaching the opposite message: "Overweight Woman Face Health Issues and Shorter Life Span."

The article I've read about the health risks of being "overweight" (not just obese, mind you, but overweight), they typically put a caveat of "there may be benefits, BUT" and proceed to ignore all evidence to the contrary of the conclusion they are pedaling after.

First they substituted "obesity" for "diet and activity pattern," then they substituted "overweight and obese" for "obese." And that is the message getting through to the average American. Overweight, Obese, doesn't matter. If you aren't in the Normal category, then you are going to die.

This gross oversimplification has given healthcare a wrestler's mentality (I'm referring to real wrestling, not WWF). I wrestled (poorly) in high school and as the day of a meet approached, we would all begin spitting and wearing trashbags under our sweatsuits and taking diuretics to drop below the magic number of our weight class. If you got under that number, then you could compete. If not, you were disqualified.

That's what our healthcare system has become: take whatever drastic measures you can to get that magic number so you can qualify to be an accepted member of our society (nevermind the health implications or individual physiology).

Veronica and I talk about this last night. Her concern about Fat Acceptance is that it is having a chilling effect on many doctors, such as her OB/GYN who didn't once mention the fact that she was 400 pounds. Being that heavy can have an impact on one's quality of life and, depending on all the factors involved, such as genetics, your mortality.

My family has a strong history of heart disease, therefore I should not eat the way I do and I should exercise. Because I eat the way I do and do not exercise, I am fat.

The fact that my doctor won't mention my weight out of fear of offending me or making me uncomfortable. In my opinion, he should ask why I am so fat. If it is due to poor diet and lack of exercise, then that is the issue to be addressed (rather than strictly weight).

But if we make weight a taboo topic for doctors, then they may neglect this aspect of our health and stop encouraging us to strive for better health through better lifestyle choices.

I'm trying to read up on HAES and learn more about how I can improve my health. We all should. I'm trying to eat a little more fruit, a couple more vegetables. Exercise is difficult because time is an issue. But I'm trying. What I'm not worried about, though, is how fat my ass is.

I'm just fine with that.

*UPDATE*
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that people who aren't concerned about their health are bad. I'm just saying that I think all of us want to be healthy, but sometimes we neglect the steps it takes to achieve health. I've been in that category a long, long time, but with kids I feel more and more inclined to take my health more seriously than I have in the past.

I understand why people slip comfortably into poor diet and exercise choices. I've been resting comfortably there nearly my whole life. In reading up on HAES, though, I've been more and more encouraged to strive to improve my health rather than my physical attributes, which which is what I thought "real" health was about.

35 comments:

silentbeep said...

part I

"Veronica and I talk about this last night. Her concern about Fat Acceptance is that it is having a chilling effect on many doctors, such as her OB/GYN who didn't once mention the fact that she was 400 pounds. Being that heavy can have an impact on one's quality of life and, depending on all the factors involved, such as genetics, your mortality.

...But if we make weight a taboo topic for doctors, then they may neglect this aspect of our health and stop encouraging us to strive for better health through better lifestyle choices."

I'm not sure what to say here, and I'm really confused by this. If there is a "chilling effect" on keeping doctors from harassing, humiliating and ignoring our concerns just because we are fat I say bring the cold on. I'll preface this by saying I know this is a deeply personal topic for you and your wife, and as for me for that matter, I'm pretty heavy myself. I think that fat people, the vast majority of us know that we are fat (I include myself in that group). The vast majority of us now know that gastric bypass and the lapband are touted as an option, and both options are heavily advertised nowadays.

silentbeep said...

part 2

I'm not sure you realize that for most fat peole the norm is being harassed by the doctor about weight. I'm amazed that you think it's a problem that you and your wife's doctor have chosen to refrain from harassing you both, and actually treat you like anyone else. Of course, if either one of you didn't like your weight, I'm sure you can talk to your respective doctors' about it. There is nothing stopping either one of you from asking "hey, do you think my weight is a problem?" If FA stops doctors from treating fat people like we are dumb and idiotic because we "obviously" don't know that our culture is constantly screaming at us "FAT IS GOING TO KILL YOU!!" all the better as far as I'm concerned.

Here is the thing: there is nothing wrong with a doctor asking you about the general state of your health, about your eating habits, and your activity levels. The emphasis on activity is what HAES is about, not the fat in and of itself. I'd say go read about set point theory. The "control" that we have about our weight is actually an issue that is complex and nuanced. I highly recommend Gina Kolata's book "re-thinking thin" and the chapter's about set point theory.

silentbeep said...

part 3

A doctor can still encourage people to have more active lives, eat better, and engage in other healthy activites such as anything that healhtfully encourage stress reduction – just because a doctor’s eyes are opened by FA, with the knowledge that not all of us got here because we are lazy and eat donuts all day, doesn’t mean they can’t still do their job. All FA is doing in my eyes, is encouraging doctors to see us as complex, multi-dimensial human beings who deserve respect, because let me tell you, most of us aren’t getting that treatment know. HAES and FA can go together, and does. They should encourage HEAS for anyone, any size that they are. The problem is the constant berating that is the partyline in the medical industry which is: you should lose weight no matter what, at any cost. I think FA is concerned with fighting that partyline.

silentbeep said...

I will use Margaret Cho as an example. She was never "fat" but she got a little chubby. She lost weight and is now basically thin. People asked her how she did it, and her answer was flat out "I stopped dieting." She practiced intuitive eating, and her body went where it naturally wanted to go.

A doctor does not have to be talking about fatness with you, per se, in order to show concern about your healthy habits. What many in FA are trying to do, is get many people to disassociate what is usually and iron-clad, sterotypical thinking that is pervasive in our culture, which is "fat is bad at all times, no matter what, no matter how fat or how not-fat you are, and must be gotten rid of at all times." It depends actually, it all depends. I want to see a more nuanced view of our bodies. I want our doctors to treat us as individuals with complex medical histories, and journeys into fatness and treat us accordingly, as opposed to another headless fattie. There is a happy medium between obsessing about losing weight with our health professionals, and never talking about it ever, ever with our health professionals. I think FA for the most part is fighting for that healthy medium attitude.

My views on healthy habits are this: if you eat as best as you can, and excercise to the best of your ability, then you may lose weight a la Margaret Cho, or you may not. It is the activity that counts and your habits that matters most towards wellness, not the weight in and of itself. Our bodies are much more complex and individual than many think they are when it comes to weight.

silentbeep said...

part 4

I see concerns too from fat people who really aren't healthy around the fatosphere too, and FA can help them with this message: when you are sick, you deserve care just like anybody else, and you don't deserve to be treated like a second class citizen if you are not thin. Also, not every disease and malady is cured by weight loss and caused by fatness for fat people. I have read too many horror stories where fat people go into the doctor complain about something seemingly none-weight related like an earache and basically get told "well go lose weight first than we’ll talk"

I don’t think FA is against a doctor telling someone like Veronica “I noticed you weigh 400 lbs how do you feel about this? What kind of excercise do you get? What's your diet like? What is your medical history in terms of fatness? This is what I think..” and having a conversation about it like adults. Lesley over at Fatshionista posted a really interesting story a while back about a health professional suggesting WLS to her; they seemed to have a respectful conversation about, Lesley said no and explained why, and the doctor refrained from embarrassing her about it.

silentbeep said...

part 5

Last year I was still on the weight watchers/jenny craig bandwagon, lost a bunch of weight and gained it all back. I was frustrated. I weighed 270 lbs. I'm 5' 6" I talked to my doctor about WLS. She flat out told me no. She said I was "too healthy" and may have considered it if I was bigger. She wrote down on my chart "obese and healthy." I wasn't even looking for it, and I stumbled upon a doctor who has a lot of FA-ish attitudes! And a doctor that knows the risk factors of WLS too. She asked me about my activity habits, my eating habits.

I had a previous doctor talk to me about the side effects of a medication I was talking, which happened to be weight gain, which I didn't know about until she told me.

Short men have higher risks for certain diseases too, but doctors wouldn't think about telling them "well let's make you taller...or just grow more" to get rid of those risk factors.

These questions go to the very heart of FA: is fatness changeable? caused by genetics? by lifestyle? both? yeah, you are barely scratching the surface right now...

Here's another good link from outside the FA circles, about all of this. A good summary of many FA principles

http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/07/thining_thin.php

(the whole thing isn't FA, it's rather FA lite, but a good intro IMHO in many way...most of the comments are crazymaking but I still give kudos to Ms. McArdle even though she isn't a liberal ;) lol )

Atchka! said...

silentbeep,
I agree with everything you've said, and if that didn't come across in my post, then I need to work on my delivery.

V's step-dad is a doctor, which is where she hears most about the "chilling effect." I know there are doctors who harp on it, but there are a lot of doctors who don't for many reasons, one of which is people getting upset when their weight is mentioned.

I absolutely agree that we need to detach weight from health and consider lifestyle choices, as well as the dozens of other factors that determine a person's weight. I'm more speaking to the happy medium you mentioned, where a doctor can ask you about your lifestyle if you have excessive weight without it turning into an inquisition and without the patient feeling awkward and embarrassed.

Weight should be just another fact, like height, and the sooner we remove the stigma, the better, for both the patient and the healthcare provider.

I'm gonna go read that article now.

Peace,
Shannon

silentbeep said...

"I know there are doctors who harp on it, but there are a lot of doctors who don't for many reasons, one of which is people getting upset when their weight is mentioned."

Hmm, I wonder if this is about weight, versus people just getting defensive in general about behavioral change. And I wonder what the bedside manner the "complaining doctors" are using when talking about weight, and if they are even going to talk about HAES at all. And how fat are these people that the doctors are afraid to broach the subject with? It depends, if I was sort of chubby I'd be like "why are we even talking about this?" I'm not so sure if this is about fatness/FA then about the difficulties of having an open honest conversation about any aspect of health. Fat is a loaded sensitive subject. It's just hard to talk about for most of us fatties with many of our health professionals.

Also, I'd say to these doctors, that for many fat people, we are expecting a fight or something unpleasant and mean to be said in the doctor's office regarding our weight, especially if it is a new doctor. I'm sure very few of us fat people approach a medical professional and think "they are going to totally treat me wtih respect and not condescend to me about my weight" So we have maybe a reticent fat person, with perhaps their guard up, being approached by a doctor, about a subject that most of us get harassed about. Also, doctors' don't practice in a vacuum, they are swimming in the same soup of "fat-hate" that they rest of us are, whether they agree with it or not, it's operating in the cultural background with every intereaction they may have with a patient.

It's a tough situation.

silentbeep said...

"where a doctor can ask you about your lifestyle if you have excessive weight without it turning into an inquisition and without the patient feeling awkward and embarrassed"

The question here to me are: who decides what's excessive? and what is that person with the "excess" going to do about the "excess"?

This topic is fascinating to me, because what this discussion is really about, is what I have often seen referred to out on the fatosphere: death fats.

There was this incredibly powerful guest post from Heidi over at SP sometime ago, talking about her story and her decision for WLS. At the time she weighed over 500 lbs. and was 5'6"

http://kateharding.net/2007/09/18/guest-blogger-heidi-i-hate-wls-heres-why-im-having-it/

Here is a bigger response by Kate about the subject of WLS and dieting as being good for some people.

http://kateharding.net/2007/10/29/reality-vs-relativism/

Trabbs said...

This is a great article, Shannon. I'm a huge fan of Sandy Szwarc as well and learned most of this stuff from her site. I've recently felt less confident about her ability to view things in an unbiased way based on sources cited for healthcare reform articles, but she has really useful information about evaluating medical studies.

And I think you give a clear explanation of how it all gets exaggerated through simplification by the media. There's also the issue of antifat bias and preconceptions that make everyone in the information chain tend to push stories that confirm what they thought was true and ignore stories that muddy the waters.

The issue that I find most frustrating in academic research on obesity is that it seems to focus so much on ways in which fat is bad for people. Frankly, that does not seem very helpful to me, given that there is no scientifically proven way to lose substantial amounts of weight on a long-term basis. The fact that men have a shorter life span doesn't suddenly make everyone say "Oh, my god! Men have got to start taking estrogen and watching Oprah and peeing sitting down. And getting transgender surgery if they are REALLY male." I mean, thanks. I know that fat people have particular health concerns just like male people or black people or tall people. It's the whole "You're fat! You have to lose weight or X and Y and Z and A and B and C and ... will happen to you!" that drives fat people away from doctors (which is clearly bad for your health). Basically, until someone comes up with a safe and effective way to lose weight, yammering on about how much better off we'd be if we were thin is just discrimination, pure and simple.

I don't think that doctors get trained in fat issues in med school. They're subject to the same media exaggerations and personal biases as everyone else where it comes to fat, but they, more than anyone else, read the studies that show that obesity is associated with X, Y and Z.

Any doctor complaining about a "chilling effect" is making a real straw man argument. No one objects to doctors discussing weight in the same way that they discuss other issues that are a factor in a person's health. My being female should lead my GP to mention that I should get pap smears every year. My family history of melanoma should lead my GP to urge me to have my husband check my moles monthly. My fat should lead my GP to urge me to check my blood pressure weekly and to keep her informed. It's treating the fat as the cause of everything and the unattainable weight loss as the cure for everything that is so frustrating. I know you agree. You just set up a forum where I could rant about it, so I did. Sorry. And thanks.

Trabbs said...

Your tiny little comment window accentuates my incoherence. It's too damned skinny.

Fantine said...

Shannon, I think you gave a pretty good synopsis of what happens with media reporting of health studies. I just have to comment on the "chilling effect" thing with doctors.

What drives me crazy about my current doctor is his propensity to not only blame every symptom I have on my weight, but to then offer no solutions. For example, when I told him a certain medication was making me dizzy whenever I bent over, he said that fat people just have that problem sometimes because our bellies press against our knees and cut off the blood flow. When I started having problems with my feet and ankles swelling, he told me that happens to fat people, and listened very carefully to my heart in case I had somehow suddenly developed the kind of heart failure that causes edema and not noticed. He completely ignored the fact that these symptoms cropped up suddenly even though I have been fat my whole life. In neither case did he offer any solutions or even suggestions about how to make the symptoms improve. And that's why I'm looking for a new doctor.

I don't mind someone telling me how my weight might be affecting my health condition, but don't just throw up your hands and stop there. Tell me what I can DO besides "lose the weight", which isn't a helpful suggestion given my long history with dieting and disordered eating. I know I am fat. It took me 30 years to figure out that my body is not going to change and to decide that I was worthy of medical care anyway, and when I finally got up the courage to go to the doctor, this is what happened. I wasted over $200 for that doctor to tell me that my problem was my fat, and ended up having to find my own solutions to the issues I had asked him for help with.

For more stories, check out First Do No Harm: http://fathealth.wordpress.com/ (sorry, I'm too lazy to look up the html to insert a link--I am a big fatty fat fat after all, and you know how lazy we are). There is no "chilling effect" on any of the doctors described there, and NONE of the people who submitted stories were helped by doctors talking to them about their weight.

Shaming people for something they cannot control does not help anyone. If doctors think diet or lack of exercise is causing symptoms, or that specific dietary changes or exercises would help, then they should just say that instead of trying to shame and scare people into dieting or weight loss surgery.

Fantine said...

And ditto on the skinny comment window. It looks like I wrote a book!

Atchka! said...

silentbeep,
Veronica was referring to women, like her, who are in the death fatz category. The women who complained to her were from a BBW/FA group we were in and they said they couldn't believe their doctor called them fat. V comes from a medical family, so she has little sympathy for people who take clinical assessments personally. I'm not sure what actually happened in the appointment, but it seemed more like they just didn't want the doctor to bring up their weight at all, which, according to V, is a liability for the doctor.

As far as excess weight, I know it's anathema to FA, but it seems like maybe BMI should be used to classify when your weight is "too much" for your body to handle. I know it isn't designed to determine that, but there is a point at which your weight begins to affect your quality of life. Just what aspects of your health are affected by weight is still up for debate (some aren't, such as joint pain) It's the individual person's decision as to whether those quality of life issues are enough to make the necessary lifestyle changes. But their doctor should be involved in that discussion as well, if the patient wants to have it. It all depends on the doctor and the patient. Some doctors consider patients who aren't interested in making the recommended lifestyle changes a liability and they drop them for noncompliance. Some patients just aren't interested in maintaining their health through diet and exercise, and they consider a doctor who repeatedly advises them to do so as prying into their business. But both sides need to communicate more and consider how the other side sees the situation. Otherwise, healthcare is pointless.

Sometimes around the Fatosphere, I get the feeling that there's a general hostility toward doctors and healthcare providers because of either personal experience or reading about the experiences of others. There's skepticism about the "conventional wisdom" of weight and health, and therefore a mistrust of healthcare. I'd like to find some kind of middle ground, whereby healthcare is not this anti-fat boogeyman that scares fat people from the necessary relationship between doctors and patients. I'm a bit of a hypocrite in this area because I never see my GP. Hell, since we moved I don't even have one. I've only gone when I needed attention for an immediate issue. But I know I should be getting regular checkups.

I want to figure out a way to encourage fat people to take charge of their healthcare and to stop letting their fear keep them out of the doctor's office.

Peace,
Shannon

Atchka! said...

Trabbs,
Thanks. I think fat is not just an issue of ineffective weight loss options, but more the social reinforcement of all the things that create a fat society in the first place. My theory is that we became fat when the way of the single-income household went by the wayside. When both parents work, both parents come home to more work, which decreases the amount of time available for exercise. That's my biggest problem. When I get home, I just want to play with my girls, who I haven't seen all day. And every minute not spent with them is spent helping V keep house.

We're also a culture of processed food. The decrease in available time affects what we have time to cook. Most of our meals are either frozen or in a box. We just don't have time to make things with fresh ingredients, like fruits and vegetables. I can't help but think that has an impact on our health as well.

And as far as the chilling effect strawman, I think it depends on the doctor. Some have been burned by patients losing their cool when they inform a patient that they're obese. The word is just so harsh that there's no easy way to say, "You're obese" without it sounding like a value judgment. Doctors should treat weight like any other health indicator, like family history. The fact that you are fat puts you at risk for X, Y, and Z. To avoid complications, you should do A, B, and C. Whether the patient agrees or not, it is the doctor's duty to inform his or her patient of what they know. And it is the patient's duty to not take it personally (unless, of course, the doctor is an asshole about it).

Peace,
Shannon

Atchka! said...

Fantine,
I agree with what you said. If the doctor thinks your weight is the culprit, he should offer you more information on how to deal with it. Veronica and I were talking about this last night, and she said they should definitely be offering to recommend a nutritionist if you are interested. But if all they say is, "Lose weight," that isn't helpful and can seem like they're just blowing you off.

One thing I've been thinking about lately is what the doctor's viewpoint is on some of the stories from "First Do No Harm." I think it would be interesting to interview the patient, then interview the doctor, and see why the situation escalated the way it did. I think too often we listen to one side of the story and say, "Oh, that's awful. That person was so wrong," but when you hear it from the other person's viewpoint you think, "Oh that's awful" etc.

I'm not discounting any of the testimonies on FDNH, but I've learned to be skeptical of one-sided accounts. You just never know what the other side will say. And usually, if you listen to both, you can piece together the puzzle enough to see something resembling the truth. And, in my experience, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

Peace,
Shannon

wriggles said...

But if we make weight a taboo topic for doctors, then they may neglect this aspect of our health and stop encouraging us to strive for better health through better lifestyle choices.

I'm sorry, but if this is the case, it is the fault of the medical profession, too many of whom have jumped on board with the obesity hysteria, rather than representing their patients honestly.

This is what people don't get, the consequences of speaking out of turn, eventually you will shut down communication. If they'd taken a balanced view then people would not have been sensitized to the point where they cannot bear to talk about it.

My family has a strong history of heart disease, therefore I should not eat the way I do and I should exercise. Because I eat the way I do and do not exercise, I am fat.

I cannot and would not give you or anyone else any kind of medical advice, but has it occured to you that your fatness may be a product of that genetic legacy?

Even the way you eat and what you eat could be bound up in it in some way.

Also, if you were slim eating the same way, would you say, I eat this way and that's why I'm slim?

At the end of the day, a health regime you cannot access is as useless as a weight loss diet that doesn't work.

A different approach is required.

Atchka! said...

wriggles,
Doctors get their information from the same resources that the media does: medical journals. If the publication bias creates an environment which increases the dangers of obesity, then, to me, it is understandable why they have taken the "obesity epidemic" so seriously. I don't think it is the doctor's fault that the dangers of obesity have been overemphasized, and therefore they must broach the subject. How is this speaking out of turn?

As far as my personal medical history, I'm not sure how you mean that my fatness is a product of my genetic legacy. Do you mean that the way I store fat is that legacy or that my family has a propensity toward weight gain? Because I'm probably the biggest person in my immediate family. My uncle who died of a heart attack, and my grandma and father who both had heart attacks, were all petite (although my uncle was a weight lifter). I believe that in their cases it had more to do with stress than weight. My father is and my uncle was highly prone to stress, which is another factor in heart attacks. I try to keep my stress levels down (but I'm genetically prone to stress, I guess). In any case, regardless of the reasons for my weight, the current medical evidence points to poor diet and inactivity as a trigger for heart disease and that is something I should take seriously.

The way I eat, I believe, has more to do with my environment than my genetic legacy. My genetics may have something to do with what foods I'm drawn to (sweet vs. salty, high-fat vs. high-carb, or whatever), but there are healthy alternatives to all the foods I crave, it's just easier to eat the junk ones because of time and financial constraints.

If I were slim, eating the same way AND physically inactive, I don't know if I would still think about it the same way. I'd probably be one of those, "I can eat anything and not gain an ounce," but that doesn't change the fact that eating poorly and being sedentary is not as healthy as its opposite.

So, what is the different approach you propose? I don't think status quo is acceptable in terms of health, but feel compelled to do something about it. What would you suggest is the best way to go about it?

Peace,
Shannon

Atchka! said...

wriggles,
One more thing... I don't think we should be demonizing ALL doctors because there are many who harbor size bias. As silentbeep said, we're all swimming in the same cultural soup. We need to fight medical bias as well as cultural bias in order to achieve our goals of being respected as we are, not as we "should" be.

Blaming doctors for the current environment may drive people away from healthcare providers, which I don't feel is something we should encourage.

Peace,
Shannon

Amy said...

Shannon, I think you need to read Sandy's site some more... there is a lot that you have missed which is very important to the point you are trying to make.

1. Doctors have a responsibility to educate themselves. They should pick up the medical journals and read them, instead of relying on biased press releases. The null studies are out there and published, otherwise Sandy wouldn't have access to them.

2. Its NOT right for a doctor to tell a patient "being obese puts you at risk for X Y and Z, so do A B and C." The science shows that this is simply not true... its a LOT more complicated than that. There are lots of better indicators of risk than weight (e.g. blood pressure) and almost none of the prescribed A B C interventions actually work.

3. People have already been driven away from healthcare providers. I consider myself so lucky to live in a country where it is illegal for a medical aid company to deny me cover based on a pre-existing condition (they're only allowed to exclude that condition for the first year), and being fat doesn't count as a disease.

4. You may be fat because you eat junk and don't exercise, but its more likely that you're fat because your parents and grandparents etc. were fat. Eating better and exercising will probably make you less fat, but you're unlikely to become thin that way.

Shannon, I appreciate where you're coming from, but I don't think you've grasped the scale of the fraud that has been perpetrated against us, you in the US specifically. This is not merely a few misinformed doctors, but a series of lies that have been fed to you by the diet industry, your government, corrupt scientists and stupid journalists. I know that sounds harsh and conspiracy theory-ish, but its true.

Fantine said...

"If I were slim, eating the same way AND physically inactive, I don't know if I would still think about it the same way. I'd probably be one of those, "I can eat anything and not gain an ounce," but that doesn't change the fact that eating poorly and being sedentary is not as healthy as its opposite."

So if eating poorly and being sedentary is not as healthy as its opposite, doctors should be asking people (ALL patients, not just the fat ones) what they do for exercise and whether they are interested in talking to a nutritionist, not just telling them that they're fat. "Lifestyle change" should not mean yet another diet or weight loss regimen--it should mean what you can actually do to improve your health, even if it doesn't change your body size.

I started going to the gym in 2004 and definitely noticed improvements in the way I felt. I started going because I wanted to maintain a 60-lb weight loss that I still have no explanation for--it happened without any effort from me at all. I think now that it was probably the result of beginning to eat three meals a day instead of starving myself. (I was still deathfat, just less so than I had been.) Anyway, despite maintaining healthier eating habits and exercising regularly, the weight all came back. I'm now about 15 pounds below my highest ever weight. I discovered fat acceptance about two years ago because I was looking for answers on why this happened and how to deal with it.

My point is, my health care providers looked at me while I was at my healthiest ever, saw that I was gaining weight, and immediately judged me, assuming that I wasn't exercising and must be gorging myself on baby donuts. They didn't ASK me about my lifestyle; they simply judged me by my appearance and the number on the scale. And that is WRONG.

Atchka! said...

Amy,
I am combing through JFD, but she has three years worth of archives. I'm working my way through, but it will take me some time.

Although I find JFD's research fascinating, I'm not about to discard everything I know about anatomy and physiology on the basis of a single blog. I'm using JFD as another resource to understand human health, but I am by no means going to rely on Sandy's opinion alone to decide what is and isn't true. I don't understand the studies she's referring to, so I have to rely on her interpretation. There are some things that seem like they could be true, but others that are hard to swallow. I'm a natural skeptic.

One thing that I find troubling is that she wrote for TCS Daily while it was still funded by DCI Group, a Big Food lobbying firm. I realize that she is not associated with them or any other groups now, but that past association does stick in my craw. I believe the obesity epidemic is blown out of proportion for many of the reasons she states, but I find it hard to believe some of the challenges to the basic physiological mechanisms that have been accepted as truth for decades.

I'm not saying she's wrong or that she's intentionally misleading, I'm just saying I don't know. Science is such an esoteric realm to me that I feel like I need someone to look at what Sandy writes, look at the existing data and say, "Well, here's where she's wrong and here's where she's right." This is much too important a subject to let any one person change the way you understand health science.

As far as my own weight, my extended family has very few instances of obesity. A few overweight, but my family is pretty small for the most part.

I'm not looking to be thin, just healthy. Do you think that eating better and exercising is necessary for good health? I still can't tell if that is what some people in FA believe or not.

Being obese (not overweight, but obese) can indicate that you may have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and those are the things that put you at risk for disease (sorry if that wasn't clear in my comments). Does every obese person have high blood pressure and cholesterol? No. But I would venture a guess that high blood pressure or high cholesterol is more common among obese patients than "overweight" or "normal" patients. Do overweight and normal patients have high blood pressure and cholesterol? Absolutely. That's why they should check everyone. But obesity still has comorbidities associated with it and should not be ignored.

My wife explained it to me as such: every inch of your body needs oxygen, including adipose tissue. The bigger you get, the harder your heart has to work to get that oxygen to every inch of your body. But unless you're able to increase your lung capacity, then you cannot increase the amount of oxygen getting into your bloodstream. Your heart has to make up for this by working even harder. That puts stress on your heart and can wear it out sooner.

This seems pretty basic to me. Is this wrong? If so, how does the circulatory system work?

I'm flailing around in Scienceland and trying to understand it the best I can. I don't want to put uninformed opinions out there, but I think many people are like me and suffering from information overload. My hope is to distill some of that down through my own gradual understanding.

Peace,
Shannon

Atchka! said...

Fantine,
You're right and a good doctor would ask that. If he asked a thin person that and his diet was poor, then a good doctor would recommend a nutritionist. But many doctor's still operate off the same bias that's present in society. It may be insulting to be grilled because of your weight, but another way to look at it is that he's erring on the side of precaution, where with thinner patients they may not get that same level of scrutiny and some health issues may go unnoticed.

And I agree, lifestyle change should be about choosing the healthiest behaviors regardless of what effect it will have on your waistline.

I'm curious about your health, as you explain it. May I ask your age, how much you weigh and how tall you are? I'd also be curious about your health indicators (BP, cholesterol, etc.).

I agree that health should not be determined by the number on the scale, but by all the factors that indicate where on the spectrum of health you reside. This fascinates me.

Peace,
Shannon

Silentbeep said...

I am not sure why you think that excercise and eating healthy is not encouraged by FA. i find this utterly bewildering. What is discouraged is treating people poorly if they happen not to eat well or excercise.

Silentbeep said...

People like gina k, paul c, and sandy s. do add skeptical voices to the image of fat people which is usually a caricature. we dont have to trade in one unthinking assumption with another. fat people have varied health profiles

Silentbeep said...

If a fat person doesnt want to admit to being fat, thats about them, not FA. FA typically encourages the opposite: To "come out" mentally as a fat person without shame. it encourages the confidence to expect respect from an M.D.

Atchka! said...

silentbeep,
I have seen a few comments around (no postings, which is why I said "some people") where people seem to be saying or implying that it doesn't matter what you eat or what you do. You can be healthy no matter what. Maybe I'm misreading their comments, but I'm pretty sure that's what I'm seeing.

I agree that fat people have varied health profiles. I think a person's health should not be based solely on weight, but weight is something that doctors look at as a warning sign that the person may be at risk for high BP or cholesterol, or even diabetes. I think that if a person is overweight, the doctor has an obligation to inform the patient of those risks and ask about his/her lifestyle. They should be asking everyone about their lifestyle, but overweight people wear one of the risks of those symptoms on their sleeve, so to speak.

It is lazy doctoring to assume all fat people have diabetes, high BP, or cholesterol, but it is responsible doctoring to ask a fat person about their lifestyle. Until popular science concedes to Gina, Paul and Sandy, doctors are going to treat their patients based on the existing belief system.

Now, how they approach a patient about their weight is a completely different issue and one that needs to be addressed. But I don't think that doctors should change their understanding of health based on those skeptical voices. There are so many skeptical voices out there that they would be paralyzed by doubt.

So it seems there are two courses of action for FA: scientific realignment and cultural realignment. The scientific realignment will be tackled by those with the know-how and those with the ability to project that information to the masses. The cultural realignment is for the rest of us who aren't scientifically-minded.

I have no problem pointing out that the CDC inflated its obesity numbers in what seems to be an attempt to manufacture a healthcare crisis. I do have a problem saying that obesity (not overweight) does not cause diabetes or high blood pressure. I just don't know enough to say that with any confidence.

But what I do think we can say with confidence is that doctors and patients both need to learn how to communicate with each other better over this particular issue. People should not avoid the doctor out of fear that they will be stigmatized or shamed for their size.

Peace,
Shannon

Silentbeep said...

I dont know about "paralysis" from skepticism. after all i have a doctor that flat out told me no regarding wls. i think she was aware of risk factors that the pro-wls mainstream downplay.

Fantine said...

Shannon, this is still a big scary step for me, even though I've been involved in FA for two years, but since you seem genuinely curious rather than ready to mock me, I will answer your questions.

I am 33 years old. I am 5'3" and weigh around 310. (My lowest adult weight was 247 and my highest weight was 324.) I do have high blood pressure, but my blood sugar, triglycerides, and cholesterol levels are all in the optimum healthy ranges. I take medication to lower my blood pressure (which I believe causes both the dizziness and the edema that I mentioned in my first post, despite my doctor's opinion that it is just because I'm fat). I have had asthma since I was born (I was born a month premature with underdeveloped lungs), but it really only flares up now when the humidity swings wildly or when I have some sort of respiratory infection like a cold or the flu.

I believe I have a condition called polycystic ovary syndrome, which is genetic and can be a factor in obesity. I am pursuing a diagnosis of this condition, but have to get off hormonal birth control before they can do the blood tests. This is a concern to me because PCOS is associated with insulin resistance and Type II diabetes, which I do not have now but could develop in the future.

Aside from the blood pressure and the hormonal issues, I am extremely healthy, especially since I stopped "dieting". My former idea of dieting was to skip meals--I started skipping breakfast when I was eight and lunch when I was twelve. My behavior would probably have been classed as anorexic if I had actually lost any weight during the 15 years I followed that eating pattern. However, no one was concerned about my nutrition or destructive eating habits because I maintained my weight while starving myself and gained weight when I gave in and ate normally for a day or two, before becoming disgusted with myself and going back to the starvation plan. I finally stopped that behavior at age 27, which is when I had the mysterious 60-lb weight loss, which brings me back to my original response.

Fantine said...

Also... the comments I've seen in regard to it not mattering what you eat or whether you exercise are more about no one having the obligation to do either of those things. We are all adults; we can eat whatever we want and be as sedentary as we want, and we don't have to justify that to anyone. In other words, you're not a "bad fatty" just because you love chocolate chip cookies and hate jogging. Everyone is worthy of respect as a human being no matter what their choices in that regard. Further, not everyone has to ability, resources, or desire to exercise regularly or eat super healthy. The comments I have seen in that regard are simply reinforcing that, not saying that exercise and diet don't matter when it comes to health.

Atchka! said...

Fantine,
I agree that people should not judge other people for how they decide to live their lives. Maybe I misread the comments, but there were some that seemed to imply that the food you eat has no impact on your health. Next time I see a comment like that I'll try to get some clarification.

And thank you for sharing your health history. Veronica had a doctor who thought she had PCOS. I think it was PCOS. Is that where you're supposed to take metformin? Anyway, her doctor said she wouldn't be able to get pregnant unless she began a regimen of metformin. She was hesitant because she had taken it before and wasn't pleased with the side effects.

Now, here we are, two birth-control babies later and worried that her IUD won't be strong enough to staunch the tide of my Super Sperm.

Anyway, I don't know what I'd do if I was in your situation. Some of the articles on JFS that suggest weight has nothing to do with diabetes, yet every other expert says yes it does. It's one thing to theorize about the intentions of the scientists responsible for the studies that suggest causation, but it's a completely other thing to stake your heatlh on that skepticism. I honestly don't know what I would do and I wish you good luck and godspeed in coming to a decision.

Obviously, whatever you do you have to do it for yourself, not because your doctor badgers you into it. Otherwise, whatever lifestyle changes you make can be undone when you no longer feel sufficiently badgered.

Peace,
Shannon

Fantine said...

Well, I'll tell you one thing: I am done trying to lose weight. No matter what. I am not going to starve myself and I am certainly not going to mutilate my perfectly functioning digestive system in order to reduce my adipose tissue. I should have noted that PCOS makes a woman extremely resistant to traditional weight loss methods as well, which is another reason I suspect I have it. I restricted myself to an average of 800-1000 calories a day and walked anywhere from 2-10 miles a day when I was in high school, and never lost an ounce. I always thought I must be "doing it wrong" somehow.

There is a correlation between high weights and diabetes, certainly. But both are extremely heritable traits. It is entirely possible that people who have a propensity to become fat also inherit a higher likelihood of developing diabetes, rather than the fat actually causing the disease. Same with heart disease, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, etc., etc.

I will be perfectly willing to make dietary changes for specific reasons, such as to control blood sugar, if it becomes necessary with time. But I will not change my diet to lose weight. Not ever again. We need to disconnect fat from health, and focus on behaviors rather than body shape. Or at least, I do, in order to keep my sanity.

wriggles said...

Anti doctor; me? No.

I respect doctors, but I have lost the attitude of deference, if they partake of arseholery, they are arseholes, full stop.

They've run away with the idea that deference is owed to them, it isn't, we the lay public choose to give them, because we understand they need it to help give them confidence they feel they need and also to express our gratitude, it is mutual, not de rigueur.

That little indulgence of ours is not open ended if they behave anyhow, screaming fits and harangues at fat people including children at their surgeries, endlessly, slandering us to the point where people are convinced we are indolent psycho gluttons out to eat the world up etc etc, is a deal breaker for some of us.

As for fat people being put off, too late, it's already happening, indeed many of us can't help thinking that is part of the purpose of 'the crisis', rationing by stealth.

They've taken advantage of the situation to get some of their frustrations off their chest, because that's easier than open discussion of their issues with the doctor patient relationship. Which depends on us being disempowered and yet that is overtaxing the profession, until they get real on that, this is the kind of nonsense they will be vulnerable to being co-opted into.

The fact that they are as good a people as any other group of individuals makes it worse not better, it means they know they are doing wrong, but distort their consciences to permit it.

They see patients every day, they often know exactly what does and doesn't work long before others, including other professionals.

We need to get away from this notion that reality has to answer to scientific papers or even science, it's science that explains reality, it is not an alternate universe.

As for your genes, I don't know, it might be that your weight is some kind of support to stave off future health issues or to help you survive in future.

Until we know exactly what weight is for, it's hard to rule that out, right now we see weight in terms of a result of eating but the facts suggest there is far more to it than this.

As for how you eat and your activity levels, it comes down to kindergarten deduction. We are told that if you want to find out what something is, compare it to it's opposite.

If have a column marked fat and one marked thin and write in all the features of both, cross off those that are the same.

That should leave you with differences and possibly clues to causes etc. If only fat people eat (I hate this expression) junk food, then that marks it out as a difference, we know this not to be true, threrfore we cannot pretend it is, because it makes us feel we are getting a handle on things.

Saying, I eat badly and do sweet fa sounds honest, but what is the upshot of it? You keep repeating and do nothing.

Whereas, if you start from where you are- rather than where you aren't, feeling inadequate and disempowered - then you are actually forced to act, rather than repeat you're a bad boy and do nothing.

You are forced to deconstruct what you mean, instead of labelling what you eat bad, maybe you can find out exactly what is in what you tend to eat, you might be surprised at how balanced it is, even if the fat grams are not those arbitrarly dictated to us, by self appointed food nazi's.

Then your activity, again, start with all the things you actually do, be aware when you are moving. You might find you move more than you think you do, even if you don't, you have to start from there and build.

The point is, labelling your eating bad, and your activity good, encourages you to congratulate yourself on your 'honesty' and behave as if you are doing something, when you are doing nothing. I'm not pointing the finger at you specifically, it happens to most of us, thin and fat alike, we are alienated from our physicality, feeling bad and doing nothing but feeling bad, enough! We are here, let's encourage ourselves step by step, being in each moment and enjoy getting to where we want to be.

silentbeep said...

Ideally, it would be great if many fat people had the psychic and emotional strength to put aside the well-founded fear, that they will be harassed by the doctor, just so that they can get the healthcare that they need. But that is not where many fat people are. "Demonizing" doctors does not happen out of nowhere: it is based on experiential evidence that the norm, more often than that, is beaing treated disrespectufully at worst, ignorantly at best.

I'm not interested in making doctors comfortable. I think part of the FA movement is to shake things up, question our doctors, and bring a skeptical eye to what they are saying to us, and hopefully, get them to question things too.

I think fat people should still see the doctor of course, even if there is a chance that a health professional is being rude and/or cruel. Hopefully, FA for many people, can give the psychic and emotional support that many of us need, in order to withstand misunderstanding health professionals, and the courage to switch doctors, if possible and needed.

I know someone who has been recently diagnosed with diabetes. He is a middle-aged man, slightly overweight, was quite fat as a teen, but lost weight as an adult, and gained quite a bit back in later years. He told his doctor that he didn't understand why he had diabetes, he has continued to watch his diet and excercise. The doctor straight out side: it's not your fault. diabetes is genetic.

When it comes to obestiy and diabetes my question is this: is obesiy a causation of diabetes? or a correlation?

Here is what Meowser said about diabetes in a comment section on Big Fat Blog:

"About the diabeeetus: T2d has one of the strongest genetic links of all diseases, and the other strong link is aging. As Paul Ernsberger once put it, nearly everyone will get t2d if they live long enough. Almost everyone under 70 who gets it has a family history of it. It's not like the formula goes, "eating too much causes you to get fat which in turn causes you to get diabetes," it's more like both t2d and weight gain are likely sequelae of insulin resistance, which is hereditary, and the weight gain usually happens first, since insulin resistance is present from birth."

http://www.bigfatblog.com/paul-campos-and-americas-moral-panic

Atchka! said...

All,
Obviously, I still have my work cut out for me. I think the respect issue should go both ways: doctors should respect their patients (even those who are noncompliant) and patients should respect their doctors (even if they blame everything on weight).

I think we do owe doctors our respect, so long as they respect us. They've dedicated their entire lives to the healthcare of others and though we may not agree with their opinions or diagnoses, it would be a mistake to ascribe malicious intent to even the most unpleasant of physicians. Doctors are fallible, absolutely, and they are trying to do their best in the flood of information out there. And the majority of information indicates that fat is incredibly unhealthy and dangerous.

Whether that data is correct, whether the doctors should vet that information better, whether they should give fat patients the benefit of the doubt... these issues are not the sole interest of the doctor. They are but a sliver of the healthcare issues out there that they have to constantly be apprised of.

If your doctor is a jackass, get a new doctor. It's a pain in the ass, but there are ways to ensure that your doctor is not an anti-fat zealot before you begin seeing him. You can call and interview him/her and ask his/her opinion prior to an appointment. Some doctors will even allow you to schedule an initial consultation to see if you're comfortable. You don't have to go blindly into your doctor and hope for the best. Ask a doctor point blank his philosophy on weight and health and he will gladly lay it on the table. If you don't like what you hear, go elsewhere.

If you want to be an active participant in your healthcare, then, until the day that popular medical science begins to listen to the Campos/Szwarc camp, we need to take care of ourselves first, then worry about converting the masses.

Second,
I support FA and HAES, but when it comes to questioning long-held beliefs of certain medical questions (such as the correlation between diabetes and weight), I'm not going to throw my hat into any corner without thoroughly examining the facts. I want the facts. I hunger for the facts. So, although we may not agree 100% now, I'm also saying we may not agree 100% in the future either.

My biggest concern is what if we're wrong. I'm not saying we are, but in the diabetes example, a gross oversimplification would say there are two right answers: either weight causes diabetes or diabetes has nothing to do with weight. (Of course, there's a whole spectrum in between, but for simplicity's sake, we'll just accept these two).

We should continue to dig and push and challenge established opinions to find out what's right, but not at the expense of truth. Let us not be so zealous in our quest for supporting evidence of our beliefs that we neglect the whole, complete picture of health. To do so would be a grave irresponsibility to those who take our words and opinions seriously.

Ultimately our goal should be to find out how everyone, regardless of size, can achieve optimum health, and if the evidence overwhelmingly points to weight loss as a solution for diabetes (I'm not saying it is, I'm just point to the current medical opinion), then we should find a way to support that.

Again, I plan on continuing my research and will seek your help in clarifying my opinions as I go, as I am not a medical professional, nor have I read or accessed all the knowledge-sources that you have.

Peace,
Shannon

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